As MLSs expand their private listing networks, brokerages build their own listing exchanges and portals fight for access to listings, Howard Hanna CEO Hobie Hanna argues the industry may be focusing on the wrong issues.
hobby hannah
In a recent discussion with Inman, Hanna said the industry’s focus on private properties can obscure broader discussions about who controls property data, how it should be distributed and what collaboration should look like in an increasingly fragmented real estate ecosystem. And he suggested this may be a unique time for large companies to think critically about these issues.
“You have to imagine that every top 10 brokerage firm is looking at building something to control their distribution,” Hanna said. “Are we in a unique moment where we don’t need MLS distribution and sharing? Maybe.”
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
Inman: In recent weeks, we’ve seen MLSs expand nationally, brokerages launch listing exchange initiatives, and new battles erupt over listing distribution. What do you think is really going on?
Hobie Hannah: I think it’s always good to look at the history of what’s building something and not just what’s happening in the moment. Things don’t happen in one day.
Many people have been paying close attention to the discussions surrounding clear collaboration, public distribution, and private listings over the past year or six months. I think it will make a lot of noise.
But the debate around portals goes even further back to whether they and media sites like Zillow, Realtor.com, Trulia, and Homes.com are brokers or media sites, and what kind of business they actually do, all the way back to IDX and VOW in 2000. Why is there an IDX? Why is there a VOW? What is the power of the MLS? Who owns the MLS? Who owns the MLS;
The original MLS was created to create cooperation and compensation disclosure among brokerage firms as an exchange. It’s like a B2B Bloomberg terminal for industry players. Therefore, we need to understand our history and move it forward.
We are at a stage where technological advancements and speed, such as AI, search capabilities, and consumers’ ability to find information, are being combined with massive integration across the housing ecosystem.
It’s not just the Compass-Anywhere deal at the top of everyone’s list, or Real-REMAX and eXp-NextHome. Keller Williams sold it to a private equity firm that also owns Kotality and Lone Wolf. Rocket Mortgage has decided to acquire Redfin, a brokerage firm and portal site.
The housing ecosystem is changing. What this shows is that data can be extremely valuable. What data drives the entire real estate brokerage system? It’s a list. The whole ecosystem only works if you have a list.
Regardless of other people’s intentions, I think we all agree on the importance of data. Many brokerages, and therefore some MLSs, have realized that without data there is no MLS, and the data they need are listings.
You seem to view listing exchanges managed by securities companies as a matter of governance and management rather than necessarily a private listing. Is the industry mistaken in thinking this is all a private listing effort?
Hannah: Yes, I think that’s how I see it.
Maybe Compass is serious about its private listing network. I can’t speak for them. Maybe in their world they really think, “You can’t know about our inventory unless you work with our brokerage or our website.” I don’t know.
But when it comes to talking and having conversations with people, I don’t think that’s really what the game is meant to be.
When you look at Compass, definitely, when you hear, “This is our marketing system, this is what the consumer wants, and we’re giving the consumer a choice,” I don’t agree with any of that.
They are disruptors, they are growing fast, and all their brands are so large that they are an easy target. But the scary thing is, “Is Compass going to take data out of the ecosystem of other brokerages and not collaborate with other brokerages?”
At their core, I don’t think it’s their problem. I think their problem is that they can’t monetize my inventory. The hard part is over. I captured the list on my kitchen table. Let’s put it into the terminal. If Howard Hanna has a loyal buyer and they want to see the house, they put it on the MLS and show it to them.
How do initiatives like HannaList and BLX fit into that?
Hannah: If you look at things like Project Upstream, which has been around for a while, the whole industry has come together to give brokers the ability to input, add, edit and share to the MLS, and then decide when it’s shared, how it’s marketed, or when it’s delivered to the MLS.
The core of what we do at Ocusell for HannaList is to help you enter, add, edit, and distribute listings to marketing systems, websites, and MLSs wherever you are, all within a few frameworks and guidelines.
Yes, the way it’s built allows you to decide whether to share this with someone or not, if you wish.
I think it’s the same with BLX. From what I understand, Keller and HomeServices provide the ability to enter, add, and edit inputs to service and feed the system, prepare marketing elements, and feed it into the MLS after completing premarketing. Perhaps you can even join the MLS, letting the customers you already work with know about your inventory.
Maybe MLS should have thought about this in advance instead of saying, “No, no, you have to give us everything, and we’ll decide where things go.”
Is this a special moment because brokers actually have an alternative to MLS?
Hannah: I think the answer is yes.
As companies get bigger and realize how important listing data is to the ecosystem, I think brokerage firms are saying, “We need to build our own systems,” and one of those is listing distribution and control over data.
We did the same thing we did with Ocusell. Cotality realized they needed to build this for brokers and went in with two large brokerages who were looking for options. Compass has built its own program.
You have to imagine that the top 10 brokerages are all looking to build something to control their distribution. Are we in a special era where we don’t need MLS distribution and sharing? Maybe.
We believe in sharing. However, the rules for distribution and data sharing may need to change. Perhaps it’s whether you should do IDX or not. Perhaps the broker is choosing where to send the feed.
You mentioned IDX. You recently mentioned that perhaps I should consider IDX. What does that mean?
Hannah: The concept of private listing networks in MLS, quote-unquote, I hate that term, but I have no problem with that.
What the broker is saying is that my seller wants this to be a little quieter. They hope it’s not all there is to the world. But I want to get it into the industry database so you can get buyers.
However, if the seller doesn’t want to do that, you can’t post my private property on your website and say to the public, “I’ll let you move into this house.” The seller doesn’t want his photo posted on millions of different websites. They don’t want an IDX feed.
I’ve said recently that IDX may have been a great thing for what it served when it was introduced to the industry in 2000. We have a set of digital display rules that were created at a time when no one really knew what the internet was going to be, what portals were going to be, what online searches were going to be.
Perhaps everything between the MLS, the broker, and the ecosystem should be on the table. Perhaps IDX should be deprecated.
What did you think of what happened between MRED and Zillow?
Hannah: If I understand correctly, part of MRED’s response was that everyone agreed to take the IDX feed from the MLS, and the wording of the feed could not be modified, manipulated, penalized, or distributed. I need to get a feed and display that feed. There are rules about how that feed should look.
From what I understand, Zillow has taken the stance that if a property is found to be sold as exclusive or private, it will never, at any point, allow the property to be listed on Zillow. it’s their choice. However, it also violates IDX rules and the nature of data sharing.
I think MRED was saying, “You’re a member of our organization. These are our organization’s display rules. You’re breaking our rules and you can no longer receive feeds from us. You’ve joined our club.”
Then there’s the argument that “you’re hurting the customer. You’re hurting the seller.”
Well, Zillow is not a public utility. Those properties were still being sold elsewhere. And sometimes they forget that there are two consumers involved in the transaction. There are buyers and there are sellers.
Everyone immediately says, “If I were a seller, I’d want my property listed for sale everywhere.” Not all sellers want that. When someone goes to Zillow and wants information about your home, knowing that the person answering the questions is not the listing agent, that’s not what every seller wants. The person who bought the zip code is someone who may or may not be a true expert in that market, has never been in your home, and can’t speak intelligently about it.
When I tell the seller that, the seller says, “I don’t want that. I want a listing agent. That’s the person I hired to represent my house on the market.”
What should cooperation look like now?
Hannah: I think the markets are different, but the local MLS needs to set the rules with an expectation of cooperation.
Some MLSs have announced that they will not participate in the Clear Collaboration, and will be given three days to publicly pre-market, but must join the MLS on the third day. Some follow clear cooperation guidelines.
What I think is bad is that the NAR dictates policies that all MLSs must follow. Where we get into trouble is that everyone follows the same policy.
I don’t think each market needs to state its policy, but rather we need to set a policy across the board.
I also think that as part of that cooperation policy, the seller, the homeowner, needs to make the final decision on when they’re ready and when they’re willing to work with the market as a whole. Cooperation means sharing their data, not whether they accept or pay the offer.
If a seller says, “I don’t want to put this in the MLS,” or “I’m fine with it in the MLS, but I don’t want to put the IDX feed on other people’s websites, I don’t want it on the portal,” and they want to put their home on the market and it’s in the listing agreement, the MLS has to acknowledge that it’s the seller’s choice, unless someone wants to come forward and say it’s a public service.
If a seller doesn’t want the whole world to know that their home is for sale, they don’t even want a for sale sign, they just want to keep it in their internal database so they can tell others that they may be a good target buyer and that should be recognized and respected.
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