MURIEL WILKINS: I’m Muriel Wilkins, and this is Coaching Real Leaders, part of the HBR podcast network. I’m a long-time executive coach who works with highly successful leaders who’ve hit a bump in the road. My job is to help them get over that bump by clarifying their goals and figuring out a way to reach them so that hopefully they can lead with a little more ease. I typically work with clients over the course of several months, but on this show, we have a one-time coaching meeting focusing on a specific leadership challenge they’re facing.
Today’s guest is someone we’ll call John to protect his confidentiality. He previously worked as a management consultant advancing at his firm, and then moved into an in-house strategy role at a company several years ago. That move was so that he could eventually transition from advisory to a more senior operational leadership role.
JOHN: I guess, long-term dot on the horizon is to have a managing director type role, either of a business unit in a bigger company or for lack, a smaller mid-cap company. So, using the broad skill sets I built early on of knowing a little bit about everything in that CEO type position where I need to know a little bit about all the departments and then bring cohesion and a way forward to all of them.
MURIEL WILKINS: So far, his hope for advancement hasn’t panned out quite as he had hoped.
JOHN: I figured I would get into a manager or role, which I did, and then find where in the company I would shoot some roots and where my skills matter the most and then pick up a topic to progress and own. I’m still the PowerPoint builder doing research and presenting it to management and it’s not like I have any kind of operational responsibility, so nothing in the company stops if I were to go on leave. It’s just that some research will not get done and perhaps some decisions are postponed. My ambition around grabbing a topic that I can own and progress that the opportunities to do. So, I’ve just been few and far between.
MURIEL WILKINS: John wants to figure out how to get the leadership role he wants and thinks there are some key communication issues getting in his way.
JOHN: I’ve become more mature in my career and recently I’ve noticed a shift in what’s expected of me and more of my work involves this high-level strategic discussions, especially these unstructured free form meetings with senior stakeholders where there’s a back and forth between participants while I thrive in the sessions that I’m used to where I prepare deeply and where I lead the conversation as a consultant or somebody who’s presenting a topic. Now, I often find myself in these more fluent meetings and I find myself holding back in them. My natural style is to listen first to others and then speak. And in these meetings often others will contribute more quickly and I then start to second guess myself and what I want to contribute and meanwhile the conversation moves away from me and I leave the room feeling I wasn’t present or impactful.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JOHN: I guess, I had these conversations always because I always was in this consultant’s role and we need to see what can we do for our client and what problems are they facing and sometimes I’m better at it, sometimes I’m worse. But I feel if I can break the types of meetings that I have down in two sections, one is these kinds of free form meetings and the other is I prepare and I present and we talk. The free form meetings are starting to take up a much greater percentage of my time, starting maybe in the beginning of my career, 10% moving now more to 60 or 70. So, I feel like my skills have needed to change and I’m insecure about whether I’m doing a good job and I feel like it’s holding me back.
MURIEL WILKINS: You feel like it’s holding you back. Holding you back from what?
JOHN: Being recognized as kind of the leader that would take on a managing director role when it does become available.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, got it. All right, so let me just make sure I fully understand. So, in terms of the interactions that you have, and this is primarily with senior leaders?
JOHN: Yes. It’s easier for me with peers or somewhere else in your organization, but when it comes down to C-suite or boards, the insecurity will come out a little bit more.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, got it. So, you feel confident or you feel secure to use your term when it’s the format of you come in, you present, you share, and then there’s a discussion or they ask questions, but it’s a more structured discussion. And where you’re feeling more insecure, again to use your term, is when it’s more of a free form conversation in terms of there’s not as much structure to it, right? It’s a back and forth and you tend to listen first, but then others jump in and-
JOHN: Yes, and I will start this internal loop of second guessing and deciding when to speak or what to say, and then I end up either saying nothing, or worse, saying something I’m not very proud of.
MURIEL WILKINS: Understood. So, you mentioned it’s holding you back from being recognized as somebody who could take on a more senior role, which is what your aspiration is. Have you gotten any input that that is the case? Do you have a sense of how you are perceived in those meetings beyond your own self-perception?
JOHN: So, I have got zero feedback to confirm what I’m feeling here.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JOHN: Sometimes, I know it’s purely in my own head and I can try to rationalize it away, and sometimes I can, but there’s still this feeling of insecurity that will linger.
MURIEL WILKINS: We’re going to jump really quick to one of your to-dos.
JOHN: Okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: Because I think it’s important that there’s two levels of experience. There is when you are in any situation, one is how are others experiencing you in that situation or in your case, in these conversations, in these meetings. And then the second piece just as important is how are you experiencing yourself. And it’s the ability to ask those questions, not in a vacuum, but when you have answers to both those questions, then the next step is that answer, is that aligned with how I want to be experienced or the impact that I want to make? And so, we’re going to drill down on your own experience of yourself. I do think it would be valuable that you seek out some information around how others are experiencing you to see what the alignment is there. All right?
And that is as simple as the next time you have one of these meetings, pick two or three people who are going to be in there, even one person is better than none and say, “Hey, in this meeting can you observe how I participate, how I communicate?” Be very specific about what you’re looking for. “How I engage? Because I’m going to come to you afterwards and ask you, how did you experience me in that meeting?” So, be very specific. Don’t just wait until after the meeting and say, “Hey, can you give me feedback on how I did?” Because people will just either say, well, if they’re really good at giving feedback, they’ll be specific. But 99% of the time people will be like, “Oh, you did fine.” And that’s not helpful.
JOHN: Yeah, exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JOHN: No.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, that’s your first homework. But let’s now drill down on the path of how you experience yourself. Okay? So, I want you to walk me through, and maybe you want to think about, without getting into the specifics of the details of the content of the meeting, but I want you to envision a meeting that you had in the recent past that reflects what you’re sharing here where you’re feeling like you’re not engaging the way you would like, you’re experiencing the second-guessing of yourself. So, I want you to envision a particular meeting. Think of a very specific one that you went through. Do you have one that you’re thinking of?
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. If we had recorded that meeting and we were to play it back now, what would I see?
JOHN: So, you would see a quick back and forth during the meeting between some of our more senior colleagues and me being quiet for the majority of it, but listening very intensively. And what’s going on in my head is I will think about what if what I say is wrong? What if I mess up their flow of communication or I’ll have something really specific to say or to contribute, but while thinking about this, they will have already moved on. And the meeting ended basically with me still trying to say my bit, but to me it felt like by now it was off-topic, too late, and then the meeting ended.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JOHN: And this is a worst-case example for me. Sometimes they look a little bit different, but that’s-
MURIEL WILKINS: A little bit different.
JOHN: What it could look like.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. That’s worst case.
JOHN: Yep.
MURIEL WILKINS: Have you had an experience when it’s these free form meetings, not the presentation type, but the free form meetings where it’s actually been best case where you’ve walked out and you’re like, “Oh, that one went well.”
JOHN: Yes.
MURIEL WILKINS: And so, walk me through in the same way. What did you experience in those?
JOHN: I guess, I’m comfortable with my surroundings and I contribute to the conversation naturally. I feel like I’m a part of the conversation both in being addressed by whatever anyone else is saying and by having the time to speak without feeling like I have to interject before somebody else. I’ve had a few of these and I’ll have these regularly. The meetings where it matters more with our CEO or perhaps our COO, the more senior stuff, I feel like there is more of the bad case or even worst case there.
MURIEL WILKINS: What’s interesting to me is when I asked you to lay out both scenarios for the first one, which was the, we’ll call it the worst case or bad case, I hate calling things bad, but you get what I’m saying. When I asked you to share with me what I would see or what happened in that meeting, you went quite quickly to what you were telling yourself, right? And you said it as I think some of the things you said is “What if what I say is wrong? What if I mess up the flow of the conversation?” So, there were questions that you ask yourself.
When we jumped to the best case, you didn’t share at all with me what your internal dialogue is. You shared with me what your actions are and how you feel, right? So, you said, “I feel comfortable. I’m actually contributing naturally. I have time to speak and I do speak up. It doesn’t feel like I’m interjecting.” So, for those you went straight from, you bypassed what you’re thinking and went straight to here’s how I feel [inaudible 00:11:15]. For the first one, you started with and described it in terms of what you’re thinking. Okay? So, what I’m interested in, what this made me curious about is, well, in those best-case scenarios, what are you thinking?
JOHN: What I’m not thinking about is when to say something, that’s the frustrating bit about these bad case scenarios is I have something to contribute but I am not contributing because I am asking myself these questions. In the good case scenario, those questions are just not there.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, what is there? Because there is a thought. It’s not like your brain went out the window. In your mind there is, and I’m digging here and I know you’ve probably never, to sound redundant, never thought about it. There is some thought pattern or belief or assumption that you’re making. We establish what the assumptions are for the worst-case scenario. They are the assumption of, “If I say something wrong, something’s going to happen. If I mess up the flow, something’s going to happen.” Those are the assumptions and worst-case scenario. What are the assumptions that you’re making in the best-case scenarios that then allow you to feel comfortable and allow you to speak?
JOHN: The assumption is I belong here and who is with me here values what I have to say and will listen and also give me the time to say it. I guess, I struggle with interjecting when the room is busy. My style is more to let the conversation play out a little bit. I would love to hear what you have to say and what you have to say, and then I’ll think about what I would like to contribute and I will share it, but I feel like the role that I’m in as the more junior member of the group with these C-suite people or more senior than that. The role that I’m in is to actually share my insights, so to get them thinking about the problems that they have.
I’ve been doing the groundwork and research, I’ve been talking to some of our other colleagues or I’ve been talking to customers or looking at the data and that part of my feeling I think stems from the feeling that I need to be quick on the spot always because that’s my role in this conversation and that adds some of the pressure that I feel around, also needing to quickly interject before it’s them that take over the conversation and I would not be able to, why I won’t get a chance to share my thoughts here.
MURIEL WILKINS: I’m just curious, have you ever tried to get your idea out quicker than what is naturally your inclination or your preference?
JOHN: I’m sure I have. I don’t remember me ever trying, but I’m sure I have and it’s not like I do and then the house burns down. The conversation ebbs and flows the way it always does.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, nothing seems to happen on the outside. It’s not like everyone turns around and says, “Oh my God, John, why are you talking?
JOHN: No, exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: The conversation doesn’t just stop and all eyes on you and it’s not like they’re saying, “Who is this person? Why is he here?”
JOHN: Exactly. That’s what the worry is. But I know that will never happen and that’s also part of what makes me sometimes slap myself on the head thinking, “Why are you feeling this way?” Because it’s nonsensical and I can easily rationalize it away, but the feeling will linger. And while I’m thinking, “This doesn’t make sense. That will never happen. Just contribute to the conversation.” That will happen during the meeting and that means I’m not being present and the conversation will get away from me.
MURIEL WILKINS: John came into this coaching conversation with a very specific concern, how he shows up in meetings with more senior leaders, those higher-level discussions where he feels he isn’t contributing quickly enough, adding value or making the right impression. Sometimes what holds us back isn’t the situation itself, but what we think about it. In John’s case, worrying so much about saying the wrong thing, that it keeps him from saying anything at all. That’s why it’s important to come back to what’s actually happening. I often invite clients to play it out. Is there real evidence that speaking up would have a negative impact? It also helps to check how others are experiencing you instead of assuming the worst.
Anchoring in what’s real rather than what could go wrong is often the first step in working through any crisis of confidence. But what’s becoming clear is that this isn’t just about whether John can speak up, it’s about the assumptions he’s making about these senior level situations and himself. Let’s jump back into the conversation as we start to unpack those.
When you do feel in those environments comfortable speaking up and you do surface your opinion or your perspective in a more accelerated way, the thought going through your head or what you believe in that moment is, “I belong here.” Let’s just start with that one. Okay, I belong here. And what was interesting to me is you said, “I belong here. Whose here values what I have to say and who is here will give me the time.” You stated all of those as assertions rather than again, when you were in the worst case, you stated all of those as questions, which is no wonder to me why when you’re in the worst-case scenarios, you’re feeling self-doubt because you’re questioning yourself.
So, we’ve been using the word assumptions. They’re all assumptions. You are a consultant. I was a consultant back in the day. I was a strategy consultant, so I understand your world and I used to work the heck out of a spreadsheet model. And if there’s one thing I knew is if you had garbage assumptions going in, it didn’t matter how beautiful the model was pivot tables and everything,
JOHN: Garbage in, garbage out.
MURIEL WILKINS: It would be garbage out on the other side. And the beauty about assumptions is they are, I don’t know, what do you think assumptions are?
JOHN: Well, they’re there to be challenged and I guess I need to do that if I would ever want to move away from this.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I mean assumptions are, they’re assumptions. You can pick and choose your assumptions, you know what I mean? You create a budget for next year or even the strategy. You’re a strategy guy. We’re making assumptions up all the time. They can be informed, they can be grounded. But at the end of the day you could say, “Hey, we can pick assumption one or assumption two. Which one are we going to go with?” And then, that drives the strategy.
JOHN: Yes. I think one personality aspect of me that feeds into these insecurities, this perfectionism where I’m sometimes afraid to go with assumption A or B, more in the interpersonal relationships area. If it’s about my spreadsheet or my PowerPoints, and it’s easier to pick because you can rationalize all of it, but when social interaction comes into play, I guess, I struggle to pick a direction sometimes.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. No, and I appreciate you being candid with that. One thing I want to differentiate with you is when you think about personality, how do you think about that for yourself? Your personality, is it just the way you are or how are you defining personality?
JOHN: Well, I believe and I strive for my personality to change with time because I learn and I experience and it’s a tricky question to answer. I don’t really know how to describe my personality. I mean, I know I have some bad habits and I know I have some character traits that don’t always help me, this being one of them, and I don’t see myself as being stationary, but I would also in these meetings that I’m in, not like to not be myself. I wouldn’t like to portray this image of who I think I need to be just to perform better. I would like to change who I am and therefore do well. I wouldn’t like to try to do well while not being who I am.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Okay.
JOHN: Does that make sense?
MURIEL WILKINS: It makes a ton of sense.
JOHN: So, I’m really looking inward and seeing where’s this feeling coming from and how can I not only rationalize it away, but actually emotionally put it aside and just be who I am, be authentic, and still get the impacts that I would like to have.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. Yeah, I understand and I appreciate you being introspective around it. I’m going to invite you to think about this or approach it a little bit differently. This is nuanced in a thin line and can feel like semantics, but I just want you to come along with me for a little bit. We’ll play around with it. So rather than think about it or approach it from the perspective of I don’t want to change who I am as well as the, I want to be able to put the feeling aside, which means basically replacing it or moving away from it, letting go of a particular feeling. I’m inviting you to think about it, not so much around changing who you are, but increasing your range, increasing your capacity.
And when I say increase in capacity, I mean you mentioned that you have younger kids. If you think about when they’re really, really young, when they start feeding themselves, they can feed themselves with their hands. They’re picking up little finger food. Then eventually they start being able to use a spoon, so they’ve increased their capacity. Now they can use their fingers and a spoon. Then they start using a fork and they want to poke everything with a fork, and now, oh my gosh, now they have three things they can pick for me. Oh, my goodness. At some point they realized they can cut food. So now, they’re still eating, but they have all four of those tools at their disposal to be able to meet the goal of getting food into their mouth and they start learning which one best serves me in different situations. Right?
They start learning. If I’m eating soup, I’m going to use the spoon or I’m going to drink it out of the bowl. I’m not going to use the fork or the knife. They start making discernment, but they don’t abandon one for the other. Let’s think about the fact that the approach that you have brought to this. And when I say approach, I’m not just thinking about what you’re doing in these meetings, I’m talking about the assumption, the feeling, and then the action that follows has all been one of those utensils. What I want to invite you to do is say, “Are there different approaches you can take that don’t mean that they’re different than who you are?” They’re just an increased capacity that gives you more range and choice all still living within who you are.
JOHN: That makes a lot of sense.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, when I provide you with that invitation, what other approach do you think you could take in these meetings that would enable you just with the goal of speaking up sooner than what you do? Just that goal in and of itself. Let’s start with the assumption, then we’ll go to the feeling then the action. What different assumption would you need to make that would lead you to speaking up sooner in those meetings, these senior level meetings?
JOHN: So, if I were to attack the assumption that I’m making that others believe I don’t belong in the roof, I think we need to turn that on its head and realize that I do belong there because they’ve invited me. I think just reminding myself of that might help me to be more comfortable sitting down and contributing meaningfully later on.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. Okay. So, let’s just drill down that one a little bit. Okay. I want to make it full proof. I love the fact that you said, “Yeah, I belong there because they asked me to be here.” It’s even different if you, because sometimes I show up at things and I’m like, “Yeah, maybe I don’t belong here because nobody asked me to show up, but I’m here.” And even then, right? So, they invited you to be at the meeting, you got the calendar invite, you showed up, therefore you belong. What else would you need to believe to make you believe that you belong in that meeting? And we’ll keep it really basic. What else would you need to believe?
JOHN: Yeah. Well, what I need to believe is that I’ve earned my seat and can contribute value just like any of the other participants, but it’s believing that that is sometimes the issue. When it’s a scheduled meeting and I can prepare, perhaps I can be a bit more thoughtful of preparing and getting into the right mindset, but you know that these meetings don’t always happen. Well, like you just said, with a calendar invite, sometimes they’re at the coffee table or after work, during dinner, which might be trickier if I choose to not really prepare these meetings. I find it hard to tell myself how to believe. I know what to believe, but how do I believe it?
MURIEL WILKINS: How do you believe anything?
JOHN: I need to see proof. Maybe I need some type of cookie jar with the positive or good case scenarios I’ve been to tell myself that’s how it can go. Second guessing yourself, this will only just make you not present and that’s not bad or good, that’s just you’re not there.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. It’s so interesting to me, right? Because in a way, you’re looking for a confirmation of your belief before it even happens, right?
JOHN: Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: And I’m going to tell you, so again, I keep going back to the fact that you have little kids. What do little kids need to believe something?
JOHN: Pat on the back and tell them, “Good job.”
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. Eventually and sometimes not even that, they just do. And so, I’m not trying to be glib here. What I’m suggesting is I said a couple of minutes ago I started off and then I cut myself off. I said, “The beauty about assumptions are…” Right? The beauty about beliefs is they’re malleable. You can choose what to believe in. It’s a hypothesis. And maybe you’re familiar with the term that I’m about to use, but I remember when I was in strategy consulting, we would talk about approaching a problem in two ways. One was a hypothesis driven approach and the other was the data driven approach. Are you familiar with those two?
JOHN: I guess, not the second one.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JOHN: Well, I know I have a hypothesis that I haven’t validated with data. That’s the whole problem here. I need to get out of my own head.
MURIEL WILKINS: Well, no, I actually think, look, I mean people say that all the time, “Get out of your own head.” I don’t know how that’s possible. Your head is attached to your body, so you better make friends with it and you better get it aligned with what it is that you actually want to have happen. So, I think this is a case of you got to choose a different hypothesis. And the thing with a hypothesis is they’re exactly that. They’re hypotheses. You can change them. I remember back in science, it’s like, “What’s your hypothesis?” “Oh, this is it. Okay, let’s prove whether it bears out or not.” And what’s happening with you is you’re going in with a hypothesis of I don’t belong and it’s not aligned with the conclusion that you want, which is to show up as confident and so you have a choice, okay?
The choices, you either choose the assumption going in and then say, “Okay, if I know what I want to do is end up as more confident being able to speak up, what does my hypothesis need to be going in and let me align myself with that.” Or you go the data-driven method, which is what I feel like you are doing. The data-driven is let me look at all the data and let me see what it tells me. And then based on what it tells me, then I’m going to fall in line with that. And so, you’re waiting to see the data to tell you that you belong, to tell you that what you have to add in that room is valuable, but you’re not going to see that data because you’re not putting things on the table to give you the pat on the back that you want.
JOHN: No, exactly. That’s a great way to put it. And I would be totally okay with the data. If I would contribute to the meeting and feedback my manager gives me would be, “Hey, you’re off-topic or you need to improve XYZ.” I’ll be happy with that feedback because then I can learn and improve and I can try to go toward the level of impact that I would like to have. But now, I don’t even give people the opportunity to get me that feedback because whenever it does happen, silence and being stuck in your head means that people won’t hear or know even about the stuff that’s going on.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, I think you can parallel path, right? So, we talked earlier in our conversation about you trying to get some feedback from people. But I also want to focus on what’s in your control and as you said, like how do you move past some of the assumptions that you currently have, and you used the term earlier around changing them or putting them to the side. If we go back to this thing of increasing your capacity, and one of the things that you said as we were working through this is, “I can pick up the assumption of I do belong here.” Part of it is because you’re invited. I would also say wherever you physically are, you belong, like you’re there. So why is it even a question, right? You are there. There’s a difference between belonging someplace and being accepted. We haven’t gotten to the accepted part, but you’re there.
JOHN: Yeah, they gave me a job. They’re paying me a salary-
MURIEL WILKINS: Exactly.
JOHN: And I have a list of responsibilities.
MURIEL WILKINS: For the time being, until somebody kicks you out or you choose to leave, you belong. Okay? You also talked about to make you feel that you belong, you have to believe that you’re adding value, which is a different assumption. Now, we get into the assumption of what is the value that you’re bringing to the table. And so, I want to test that one out a little bit. So, what would you have to believe about the value that you bring to the table to make you feel like you can move to contributing earlier than you typically do? And let me caveat it before you answer it. I want you to think about your response based on what is in your control, so not based on how other people would respond, not what other people would have to believe about your value. What would you have to believe about the value you bring to the table?
JOHN: Well, I am the company’s fact book in a way, and my team’s job is to establish facts based on hypothesis so that we can lay out the options and move forward as a company. And what I would need to believe for me to know that I add value is to have a conversation about what have we done here? What are the assumptions that have gone into our work? Could it also go completely this way and can we go off on a tangent about this random topic that was part of our conversation? I guess, what I need to believe about my value is can I answer the questions that are put in front of me or when I can’t, that’s also okay. Can I then have a free-form discussion with someone around what may need to happen or what might’ve happened? I find this one very tricky to answer, and I know I’m dancing around what the answer should be. The question is what do I need to believe to know that I add value?
MURIEL WILKINS: Let me simplify it a little bit. Maybe I use too many words there. I genuinely want know, what is the value you bring? Why are you in those meetings?
JOHN: Ultimately, the company needs to grow revenue, make a profit, and I’m part of the team that suggests projects to make that happen either by introducing new things or taking away all things. If those things happen, I think I’m doing a great job, but I think that’s more of an external reason that I can’t impact this. The company hasn’t been doing too well and I can propose business case after business case, and if there’s no money to execute them, they won’t happen. And that can contribute to me feeling not valuable because what I’m doing here is suggesting change, but change is not happening. That’s not really internal to me. It does contribute in my head to this feeling of not bringing enough value to the table.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I think you hit on something really important here. You’re measuring your success, right? If we look at you bringing value as success in those meetings, you’re measuring your value on something that is currently out of your control.
JOHN: Yes, that’s true. Yeah, yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: That is, I don’t know about you, that’s causing me anxiety.
JOHN: I know, and it sounds horrible.
MURIEL WILKINS: It’s not horrible. I think it’s you’re placing an expectation on yourself on something that you actually don’t have the capacity to do. I can sit here and honestly say, “Yeah, you do not have the power in your capacity to change the trajectory of the company.”
JOHN: I don’t believe that myself either.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah.
JOHN: But my feeling of value does depend on can we finally get one of these projects going beyond the pre-study phase or beyond the pilot phase? If not, then all I’m doing here is contributing to this stack of knowledge which is valuable in itself and maybe will get used when times are a bit better, which is also valuable. Part of my view of value or a significant chunk of my feeling or value does depend on does my work have impact?
MURIEL WILKINS: Does your work have impact? So, I think John, to me, I don’t have the answer. I often don’t have the answers. But what’s coming up for me is a question around would it be worthwhile to redefine what impact means, and here’s why that’s coming up for me. You started off when you were describing your role to me. You were saying that your responsibility is to shape the strategic discussions that happens at the senior levels. What you did not say is that your role is to make sure that one of these freaking projects gets done and implemented. What I heard was you are there to provide information and framing and input so that these individuals can then make the right strategic and investment decisions for the company.
JOHN: Yes. I see where you’re going with that. Yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: I’m not going anywhere. I’m just playing back what you told me. Fast forward to now, what I’m hearing you say is, “When John thinks about his value, it equals that a project gets pushed through,” and that’s not really aligned with what your role is.
JOHN: No. That’s very true.
MURIEL WILKINS: So, what’s coming up for you?
JOHN: I have said that my role is to shape discussion and what I’m saying that my definition of value is that positive decisions are made regarding the projects I suggest, but that’s not shaping a discussion, that’s making a decision and a very particular decision, maybe not even the right decision. If we go back to the beginning where you asked me why did you move from being a consultant to working for just one company, part of it was having operational responsibility and more impact. Perhaps some of my feeling of the value that I’m currently not having is that I’m still that consultant that will paper push a project out and without any impact on whether it gets done or not. So perhaps, my sense of value contribution has changed from when I began as a consultant and was really excited about these things to a more mature version of myself and actually want to do rather than advise.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I mean, what I hear you saying is there may be some dissonance between the value of the role that you’re in and the value that you want to create.
JOHN: Yeah, exactly. I can be completely happy with the role I have and there’s so many fun things about it, but I guess it’s just a frustrating role to be in when you’re not seeing the impact of your work, and I think that’s feeding some of my other insecurities around, “Do I really belong here?”
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. I think there’s some nuance here because to me what I’m hearing is there is value in the role. The question is, do you still see value in the role? That’s number one.
JOHN: Yeah, yeah.
MURIEL WILKINS: And number two, is that the impact that you want to be making? And number three, if it’s not the impact you want to be making, can you even make the impact that you want to make, the value that you want to create in the role that you’re in?
JOHN: Well, to answer that question, I think I can. It’s just that maybe times just need to be better. I think there’s some external factors at play regarding market, but I think this is a role I can really thrive in. I am a jack of all trades. I think I can have impact, the impact that I’m looking forward to. It’s not like all the time right now. It’s not like nothing is happening, but it’s frustrating when you do another one of these studies, suggest them and then move on to the next level. Do another hard push with a big team on getting facts out onto the table and then you move on to the next one and you do it again. And I know that’s feeling less valuable perhaps makes sense when that happens.
MURIEL WILKINS: It does, depending on how you’re defining value. That’s all we’re talking about here. Because I think, again, if you go back to if the metric is getting these projects through, then yes, it’s going to feel like you’re not adding value, which is different than I get the frustration you put in all the work. Here’s another one that gets denied. So, it can feel like, “Why do we put in all the work?” The flip side of that again is these folks need to make informed decisions. They made a decision. You know what I would say my metric would be my suggestion around a metric, around what would feel like, “Huh, something’s not clicking.” If these senior level folks were not able to make decisions at all based on what you were contributing.
JOHN: Yeah, that makes sense. And they find, well, me and my team are doing valuable. They keep us around even when the company needs to downsize. So, I know that deciding to not do it is a valuable outcome in of itself. But sometimes, I feel like the research you’re trying to breaking, but all they’re getting is your hypothesis is not true. It’s not true, it’s not true, and that’s valuable because you’re moving forward, but personally you’re also standing still
MURIEL WILKINS: Standing still, yup. And so, the question for you is how comfortable are you? What would you need to feel like you are still contributing value and you belong even in those times when you have to stand still because that’s the situation you’re in. Not because of your own doing, as you mentioned. It’s because of these external circumstances.
JOHN: This one I think is simply coming to grips with the fact that there are things I cannot impact in the big picture and that what I’m doing is valuable because we need to always explore what routes to take. I think I can come to grips with that. If I move my personal frustration to the side a little bit and realizing that it’s okay to be frustrated, but this is the work.
MURIEL WILKINS: Throughout this coaching conversation, we are tuning into how John’s thinking is shaping how he experiences these senior level meetings. He’s questioning whether he belongs, and underneath that, what I hear are the assumptions he’s making about himself and about how others see him. Because of his consulting background, he’s used to relying on data before drawing conclusions. That mindset works great in certain situations, but when it comes to belonging, it can actually get in the way. If you’re waiting for proof that you belong before you speak up, you’ll probably never speak up and then you never get the proof you’re looking for.
So, the work to do here is to flip that. To see belonging, not as something he has to earn, but as something he can practice. It’s not about pretending or forcing confidence. It’s about choosing a and testing it through action, speaking up, engaging, showing up even when the evidence isn’t all there yet. And there’s another layer to this. As we kept talking, it became clear that John’s sense of belonging was tied to how he defined his value. For him, value meant projects moving forward, recommendations getting implemented. That’s a natural way to measure impact, but it also puts his sense of worth in things outside of his control. In his current role, it isn’t his job to make those decisions.
So, what if he redefined his value as shaping the thinking that leads to making the right decisions rather than the decision itself. Because when your sense of value depends on things you can’t control, belonging will always feel out of reach, but when you anchor it in what you actually bring, your insight, your voice, your contribution, belonging becomes less about being accepted and more about recognizing you already have a seat at the table. Let’s get back to the conversation.
Let’s imagine you have a meeting coming up, one of these senior level meetings. “I do belong here because I was invited to the meeting and I’m here.” And we took the value I bring is to help these folks explore their options and help them make the decisions that they need to make even if they don’t move forward with one of these projects. And we’ve got to go back to the, “Well, and it’s okay if I’m frustrated, if they turn it down, but I also understand that’s part of the work.” If you took all of that as your hypothesis and your assumption moving into this next senior level meeting, what is the feeling that you believe you would have walking into that meeting?
JOHN: Even you, now describing it to me, feels like weight off the shoulders and I think I would go in a bit more relaxed and ready to talk.
MURIEL WILKINS: And what do you think about that makes you ready to talk?
JOHN: I think part of my notion around value and me thinking that I need to prove that value in the meeting by creating impact with one of these projects. I think if that notion of value is challenged to where if the project does not move forward, then you can actually, it can be paused or it can be decided not to pursue it. I think it would help me to feel less fear of failure. It’s not failure if this doesn’t happen and it’s not failure if we decide not to do it. I think I would come to grips with I’m still valuable even if that’s the case.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so, what I think I hear you saying, John, and correct me if I’m wrong, is the stakes of what if I say something wrong wouldn’t be as high because there is really nothing wrong because you’re not pinning it on whether one of these projects moved through or not. You’re providing information that as you said, you’re the facts person.
JOHN: That’s totally right. If we use another child analogy, there’s not this perfect baby that we’re grooming to be let go into the world. It’s okay to look at it from different angles and say something that might be not at all what you want to be included in the final products.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah.
JOHN: That’s okay.
MURIEL WILKINS: It’s interesting to me because your role of shaping the conversation actually gives you way more latitude to not have everything rigid as, “Stated fact, and you’ve got to be 100% certain. And oh my gosh, if you say something wrong, it’s going to blow up the whole thing.” Right?
JOHN: Mm-hmm.
MURIEL WILKINS: It does give you more latitude to be able to say, “Well, here’s one way we could look at it and here’s another way we could look at it.” Okay? And what I’m hearing you say is if you came in with these alternative assumptions that we just walked through and then it created a different feeling, then the outcome in terms of how you behave in the meeting might be different and more aligned with the way that you want to show up. Whether that lands itself in terms of project gets approved or not, is out of your control. So that’s not the outcome we’re looking at.
JOHN: The outcome is being present and active in meetings of all shapes and sizes.
MURIEL WILKINS: That’s right. So, at least you give it a chance for that project to be influenced, but ultimately the decision is not yours, nor can you control the decision makers. It’s ultimately up to them.
JOHN: Yeah, that’s right. That’s a very rational way to look at it, and I think you’re spot on with having to go into these meetings with different assumptions. Yet there’s always still a little bit of that insecurity there of now do I belong, but I think that also makes sense in these types of meetings. Perhaps not the do I belong question, but more of the I need to perform now and it does need to come out and nothing coming out is not performing.
MURIEL WILKINS: Mm-hmm. I mean, it’s a type of performing. It’s like, what is it? Silent movie ventriloquist.
JOHN: Exactly. People laugh at Charlie Chaplin.
MURIEL WILKINS: Right. It’s not the type of movie you signed up for, right?
JOHN: No, exactly.
MURIEL WILKINS: I don’t know. I feel very disappointed if I went to a talking movie and I show up and it’s a silent film. So, something is performative if it’s not aligned with who you actually want to be in that meeting. That’s the only way it’s performative. And so, the fact that you’re using that word, there’s something that I think you need to sit with, which is this idea that talked about, which is all the things that we just went through in terms of the different ways that you can behave in those meetings are a part of you. They’re not this other performative, not my personality. That’s why I wanted to get away from the term personality. They’re a part of you. They’re just not using them. They’re like the fork or the knife that your kid might not be using at the moment.
But in order to use it, there are certain, again, assumptions and feelings that you need to have that align with it so that there’s a higher propensity of you using it in a way that feels aligned and not performative. All right? So, I know that you said there’s still a little bit of this feeling insecure, and I know the comfortable thing would be to walk in and not feel insecure at all. Okay? But let me ask you this. What would make it okay for you, we’re going to add on a layer. What would make it okay for you to walk in with these assumptions that we just talked about and still feel a little insecure going in?
JOHN: I know everyone is insecure to some degree. Nobody is without them. I bet people across from me are insecure about something even perhaps during the meeting. So, realizing that it’s also okay to feel like that I think would help and really coming to grips with that. But yeah, realizing that it’s okay to be insecure and that the better alternative is to speak my mind.
MURIEL WILKINS: Is there a world where you can feel some insecurity and still speak your mind, is what I’m curious about?
JOHN: Yeah, of course. I mean, in a way I’m doing that. I find it tough to answer. I mean, I know that my colleagues are acceptance of me as a person. We have a great time at work. So, I think that I just need to see that this is not a singing contest and they’re going to press a big red button whenever I’m done talking. We’re colleagues and we’re trying to get something done, and it’s always okay to feel like maybe you’re stronger here and weaker in other areas, but I just need to get it through my head. There needs to be words that I need to speak my mind, and then we can talk about whether that’s the right thing or the wrong thing to do.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah. That’s right. And I think what it is you have to give yourself permission to do that. And what you just said about your friends, you said your friends are or your colleagues are accepting of what you do and you have fun at work. It doesn’t sound like there’s any issue. And my question to you is what would it take for you to be accepting of yourself and give yourself permission to say what it is that you need to say, and at the same time know that, yeah, you might feel a little nervous about it, you might feel a bit frustrated, and it’s okay.
JOHN: Yeah. I just need to be comfortable that I have earned my seat at the table because I know that I have.
MURIEL WILKINS: Yeah, and here’s the thing, John, yes, you need to be comfortable or let me say, I hope you become comfortable and it’s okay to be uncomfortable. I think you’re waiting for certain things to be in place before you speak up. Okay?
JOHN: Yes. That’s a very good way to put it.
MURIEL WILKINS: And what I want to offer you is say, okay, that would be nice, right? And is it possible that you’d speak up even if those things aren’t in place?
JOHN: Yeah, that’s a great way to put it and it describes a lot of how I go to work. Let’s put the right things in place, execute across, look back and summarize and move forward. With some of the meetings, I mean, where the topic is more free flow and we need to bounce back and forth and there’s no facts yet perhaps even to talk about, it’s more difficult because some of the structure that I would like to have to express my thoughts is missing, and I feel like in my way of communicating, I cling on to that structure because it will give me some base to work off of. But what I realize now is that sometimes in these types of meetings, that base is not yet there. We need to find what that base might be because that would make me a lot more comfortable to share, to go left or the go right because I need to be more comfortable with speaking up without certainly knowing where we’re going to end up.
MURIEL WILKINS: Bingo, bingo. That’s what I would love you to try. All right. I don’t know how it’s going to pan out, but I think it’s worth a try. What’s the worst that could happen if this next meeting that you have literally that’s what draws you. I’m going to speak up even though I’m not sure where this is going to go.
JOHN: The worst that can happen is they move on without acknowledging it or they somehow move on and after the meeting I get the feedback saying, “Hey, do you even know what’s going on here?” Getting that feedback, “Are you aware of what we’re doing here?” I guess that’s the worst feedback I expected I could have.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. How would you deal with that? Would you be able to deal with that?
JOHN: Yeah, definitely. In a way I would love that feedback because I’ll ask them, “Where did you think I went wrong?” And they’ll tell me and then I can look at it. Then it’ll be better.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, so I just want you to hold onto that because we went to worst case and I said, “Would you be able to deal with that?” Which I don’t know what the answer is. You actually said, “Definitely, I could deal with it.” If you know that you would be able to deal with the worst case, not that we want the worst case. Why would there be anything holding you back? Most of our fears come from that. We won’t be able to deal with what happens. It’s not the act of speaking up in the meeting. That’s why you were asking yourself, “What if I say something wrong?”
Because there was something around, would I be able to deal with the consequences of saying something wrong? So, we’re concerned about the consequences, not the act itself. It’s again, going back, I have teenagers, right? They’re not concerned about what they’re doing. My two teenagers. Believe me, they are not concerned at all about what they’re doing. They’re concerned, I wish more so, about the possible consequences of what they’re doing.
JOHN: Yeah, you’re completely right.
MURIEL WILKINS: We’re not changing the situation and the circumstances and the people in the room and your role and all of that at all. What we’re doing is we’re adding a different way, an alternative way, an additional way of how you can approach an experience yourself to that situation. And I think part of it is this, beyond the assumptions, beyond the feeling, beyond the speaking up, let’s fast forward and also say, “Okay, what would make me feel a little less afraid is if I know that what I think could happen, that would be worst case, I’d actually be able to deal with it. It might not be nice. It might sting. It might be a little messy, but I’d be okay.” We feel insecure when we feel like we’re not going to be okay, but if you’re like, “I’ll be all right,” Then you’re secure at a baseline level.
JOHN: That makes sense.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay.
JOHN: I would welcome it even. It’s an opportunity for something to happen and to learn, which makes it all the more frustrating when I can look at myself and see what I’m doing, and then it might go well once and then it will go less well again.
MURIEL WILKINS: And when that happens, what do you do?
JOHN: Either way of two things, I guess. Sometimes it validates my insecurity incident. I’ll tell myself, “See, you didn’t contribute and therefore don’t belong.” Or it’ll happen and I’ll think, “Okay, I was just off the ball today and I need, if I had just done XYZ, it would’ve been better and let’s move on.”
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay, so those are two choices, right? And part of it I think is you are habitually choosing one, which is the like, “See, I told you, you don’t belong.” Reinforcing the hypothesis that is not helping you whatsoever. Right? The other choice is, “Okay. Let me learn from this. Let me try it a bit differently next time.” That’s all mindset. That’s the Carol Dweck fixed versus growth mindset. Unless there is something deeply, deeply, deeply rooted, in which case, I’m not the one to work through that with you. That would have to be explored more in another type of forum. But I think right now, at the very least, you can try it and see how it works for you.
JOHN: Yeah. No, I think you’re spot on with going in with different assumptions, being okay with the value I contribute and simply needing to take a chance if I’m okay with the consequences. Those are really the three things I took away from this so far.
MURIEL WILKINS: Okay. So, I want you to take all that. So, you have two pieces of homework. The first is, “I do think it’d be worthwhile to go get some feedback.” Not so that you change anything, but more so that you’re like, “Is that aligned with how I want to show up?” Then I know at least that’s taken care of, and all I need to do is work on perception of self-versus perception of others. Okay? The second piece of homework is everything that we’ve been talking about, you now have a newly formulated hypothesis. Take that into the next meeting.
Try this approach and just see what happens. You might come out on the other end and say that, “Muriel, that coaching was a waste of time. It led to the big red button,” which would be fine. That’s when I say blame it on the coach. And if it’s like, “Oh my gosh, I actually spoke up even once.” Or “I felt better.” Or “I felt like even if I didn’t speak up, the feeling I had in that meeting was different than what it was before.” Then we know something happened different. You responded differently than you have been. Okay?
JOHN: Yeah. Thank you.
MURIEL WILKINS: As we wrapped up, what stood out to me was how much lighter John said he felt once he gave himself permission to show up differently, not to change who he is, but to change how he’s approaching the situation. By the end, he wasn’t trying to find proof he belonged, he was starting to believe it and to act from that belief. That’s the shift that happens when we stop tying our value to misdirected outcomes and start recognizing the value we bring simply by being in the room, by contributing, engaging, and shaping the conversation. I also want to make an important point here. Coaching is not therapy. My role is not to dissect why or how a belief, I don’t belong here, formed or to help someone heal from its origin. My work is to help clients see whether that belief serves them in achieving their goals moving forward. And this belief, I don’t belong here, is one of the seven most common beliefs I’ve seen hold leaders back.
I explore all seven in my new book, Leadership Unblocked: Breakthrough the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential, which comes out October 28th. In it, just like on this show, I help you get clear on what’s getting in the way so that you can lead with more impact and ease. So, if this coaching conversation resonated with you, you can pre-order Leadership Unblocked now wherever you get your books, because that’s the work of unblocking, not changing who we are, but freeing up what’s already there. That’s it for this episode of Coaching Real Leaders. Next time.
MAGGIE: Every moment of newness that the company faced, I always was able to figure out the pieces and parts to make that work. I see myself continuing to bring that, but I think that I’ve gotten to the point where there needs to be a more refined leadership scope, and I just don’t know if I am who that organization needs at that phase.
MURIEL WILKINS: If you love the conversations we have here on Coaching Real Leaders, you’ll definitely want to check out my new book, Leadership Unblocked: Breakthrough the Beliefs That Limit Your Potential. You can order it now wherever you get your books. And if today’s episode resonated with you, I’d be so grateful if you’d subscribe to the show, share it with a friend, or leave a five-star review on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen. It’s one of the best ways to help others find the show. I’d also love to stay connected. You can always find me at murielwilkins.com, on LinkedIn, @murielwilkins, and on Instagram @coachmurielwilkins.
A big thank you to my producer, Mary Dooe, sound editor, Nick Crnko, music composer Brian Campbell, my Chief of Staff, Emily Sopha, and the entire team at HBR. Much gratitude to the leaders who join me in these coaching conversations and to you, our listeners who share in their journeys. From the HBR Podcast Network, I’m Muriel Wilkins. Until next time, be well.
